Sealfate builds in PvE
Whenever I see a thread about the efficiency of Sealfate rogues in raid PvE it's a big argument. Some claim they are number one damage dealer with it, others say its a pure PvP build and that there's no way it could reach the efficency of a Combat-Dagger or Combat-Sword builds.
How can people have such different opinions about the viability of Sealfate specs in PvE?
Who is right? Is it okay to use it in PvE or are you gimping your raid?
Combat dagger builds have a lot higher dps with standard attacks and a higher crit rate whereas Sealfate builds generate more combopoints and have Coldblood. The builds different strengths mean that there are situations that benefit a Sealfate build, and others that benefit a combat dagger build.
Combat-dagger is better in low hp trash clearing as well as long static boss fights like Ebonroc.
Those situations however where you have a couple of seconds fighting and then a forced break are perfect for sealfate rogues, especially if you don't lose your cp.
In the breaks you will regenerate energy but you won't do melee damage. So the balance of how your finishers, backstabs and melee dps contribute to your total dps will shift. Melee dps will be less important and so the gap between SF and combat-dagger melee dps will shrink. It might become so small that a SF builds benefits over a combat-dagger build (for example more cp, a broader choice of finishers and coldblood) might not only close it but push the SF builds dps over the combat builds dps. The trash packs between Twin Emps and C'Thun or Chromagus are great examples for that kind of fights.
So when ppl are argueing over what build is more effective in PvE they might just think of the builds in different situations. But another important reason is that some players just don't know how to take advantage of the Sealfates faster combopoint generation and broader range of finishers.
The golden rule of playing a combat build is this: Have S&D up as much as possible. You will spend all your cp's in Slice&Dice. When it has run out trigger a new one and voila you're playing the build to it's fullest.
But if you change your build to Sealfate and continue to play like that you are wasting dps. Lots of it. For Sealfate rogues S&D is not the only viable finisher anymore to buff your dps.
Let's say your white damage does (without S&D) 150dps. An average 5pt Evi does (for me) about 1200 dmg. A 5pt Slice&Dice with 3 points in Imp S&D will hold 30 seconds.
To make a 5pt S&D as effective as a 5pt Eviscerate you need to use 27 seconds of it.
Even if you consider an Eviscerates higher energy cost (10 energy are 1/6 backstab or about 180 damage) you have to use at least 23seconds of your Slice&Dice to make it superior to Eviscerates.
There are a LOT of fights where you can't guarantee that so S&D is not the best option.
Some guidelines:
Learning when to trigger which finisher is the big challenge of a Sealfate build. Master it and you won't be far behind your combat-specced guildies.
Last but not least i feel it's important to remember that dps is not all that is important. Having a fast cp generation can also help the raid in other ways. Take C'Thun as example: In phase 1 where rogues are the only class meleeing him I'm usually keeping Xpose armor up in addition to S&D wich is a big dps plus even if it won't show on dmg meters. In phase 2 I can kidney eye tentacles a couple of seconds faster than any other rogue. Both will help the raid a lot.
*) I said S&D should be used at about 3cp. Why not 5cp? Why not with 1cp? This is a bit complicated and you can read about the maths in my post Finisher Efficiency: Slice&Dice.
How can people have such different opinions about the viability of Sealfate specs in PvE?
Who is right? Is it okay to use it in PvE or are you gimping your raid?
Combat dagger builds have a lot higher dps with standard attacks and a higher crit rate whereas Sealfate builds generate more combopoints and have Coldblood. The builds different strengths mean that there are situations that benefit a Sealfate build, and others that benefit a combat dagger build.
Combat-dagger is better in low hp trash clearing as well as long static boss fights like Ebonroc.
Those situations however where you have a couple of seconds fighting and then a forced break are perfect for sealfate rogues, especially if you don't lose your cp.
In the breaks you will regenerate energy but you won't do melee damage. So the balance of how your finishers, backstabs and melee dps contribute to your total dps will shift. Melee dps will be less important and so the gap between SF and combat-dagger melee dps will shrink. It might become so small that a SF builds benefits over a combat-dagger build (for example more cp, a broader choice of finishers and coldblood) might not only close it but push the SF builds dps over the combat builds dps. The trash packs between Twin Emps and C'Thun or Chromagus are great examples for that kind of fights.
So when ppl are argueing over what build is more effective in PvE they might just think of the builds in different situations. But another important reason is that some players just don't know how to take advantage of the Sealfates faster combopoint generation and broader range of finishers.
The golden rule of playing a combat build is this: Have S&D up as much as possible. You will spend all your cp's in Slice&Dice. When it has run out trigger a new one and voila you're playing the build to it's fullest.
But if you change your build to Sealfate and continue to play like that you are wasting dps. Lots of it. For Sealfate rogues S&D is not the only viable finisher anymore to buff your dps.
Let's say your white damage does (without S&D) 150dps. An average 5pt Evi does (for me) about 1200 dmg. A 5pt Slice&Dice with 3 points in Imp S&D will hold 30 seconds.
To make a 5pt S&D as effective as a 5pt Eviscerate you need to use 27 seconds of it.
Even if you consider an Eviscerates higher energy cost (10 energy are 1/6 backstab or about 180 damage) you have to use at least 23seconds of your Slice&Dice to make it superior to Eviscerates.
There are a LOT of fights where you can't guarantee that so S&D is not the best option.
Some guidelines:
- For a Seal-Fate rogue it's often better to be half the fight without S&D but get a couple of extra Eviscerates off than to go for full S&D at all costs. When you can't guarantee that you will be able to melee most of the time of a S&D don't use it.
- In non static fights S&D is best used with about 3cp(*), Eviscerates however should always be 4-5cp so the damage per energy is worth it.
- Don't waste the cooldown on your Coldblood if it's ready. Go for an Eviscerate at all costs!
- When you fear you won't get to do another finisher on the current mob stop backstabbing. Let your energy regen and switch targets when you are almost full energy and ideally before the old target is dead. So even if the kill speed of your raid is high you have full energy now and some extra seconds before the raid dps focuses on your new target. That should buy you enough time to gather enough cp for finishers.
- In static fights where S&D is well worth it a SF build generates more cp then you need to maintain it. So do a 4-5pt S&D and spend the next 4-5cp for a different finisher. If that results in little gaps in your S&D uptime it's acceptable.
- Why do i write 4-5 all the time? If you have 4 cp on a target spend it and don't backstab again. You just risk to waste a cp if you do it and that's never worth it.
Learning when to trigger which finisher is the big challenge of a Sealfate build. Master it and you won't be far behind your combat-specced guildies.
Last but not least i feel it's important to remember that dps is not all that is important. Having a fast cp generation can also help the raid in other ways. Take C'Thun as example: In phase 1 where rogues are the only class meleeing him I'm usually keeping Xpose armor up in addition to S&D wich is a big dps plus even if it won't show on dmg meters. In phase 2 I can kidney eye tentacles a couple of seconds faster than any other rogue. Both will help the raid a lot.
*) I said S&D should be used at about 3cp. Why not 5cp? Why not with 1cp? This is a bit complicated and you can read about the maths in my post Finisher Efficiency: Slice&Dice.
posted by lithander at 1:26 PM
4 Comments:
I really like your blog. Hope you'll continue to write here often :)
I agree with Ulric. It's great to read about the technical raiding aspects of Seal Fate. We need more articles like this! Your blog is definately bookmarked for me.
One interesting choice for a Seal Fate build is choosing between standard SF build (30/8/13 or some variant) and going 30/21 for a more combat heavy approach. I found that 5/5 DW Spec increases my offhand damage (wielding CHT) from 66 DPS to 100 DPS, a gain of about 33 DPS. Opportunity increases my backstab DPS by 20%, from 936 DPS to 1123 DPS, a gain of (1123-936)/6 = 31 DPS.
Putting points into the combat tree allows me to also get Blade Flurry, a situationally great skill, and frees up a few more points for other talents. Highly recommended for PvE Seal Fate rogues.
5/5 DW Spec also makes SnD more valuable, since the base white damage (before SnD) has increased.
Have you ever examined a sealfate hybrid build? I'm currently experimenting with 30-21-0 with a high damage range MH weapon. I'd like the mace from ossiron in AQ20 but for now I'm using the sword from the rend set. I'm not quite up to the damage output I was with combat daggers, but I also don't have a perdition's blade quality MH for sinister strikes like I did before. I find with this build I generate enough combo points to stay in slice 'n dice between 4-5 point eviscerates and the reduced energy cost of SS versus backstab lets me get off more attacks that almost always generate more points. With current 1.11 trees the build is phenomenal for pvp as well because you can still stunlock people (improved kidney shot is a must in the build) and 2000+ eviscerate crits do away with those encounters where your get the opponent close to death with a big backstab crit but they're left with enough time to heal themselves while you wait on a big energy regen from the costly backstab.
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